Asteroids, Asteroids and More Asteroids - Side B

Tristan Paylor: 00:00:04

Do we want to move on to Pallas?

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:07

Yeah. So a bit about Pallas. Astronomically

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:12

Pallas kind of belongs to that category of protoplanet similar

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:17

to Ceres and Vesta. Though series is the only one that gets

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:21

that minor planet designation. It's still pretty big. I believe

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:25

it's the third largest object in the asteroid belt. It also has a

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:30

very eccentric orbit, highly inclined, so it's like way off

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:36

the ecliptic and has a similar eccentricity to Pluto. You know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:44

sometimes it's much closer to the Sun than other other times

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:47

in its orbit, which does seem to show up in Pallassignifications.

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:52

But we'll we'll get there. So Pallas is named after the

Kyle Pierce: 00:00:59

goddess, Pallas Athena, probably primarily known as just Athena.

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:04

So we'll probably end up using that kind of interchangeably.

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:09

But Pallas Athena was the daughter of Jupiter, or Zeus,

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:15

and is the goddess of strategic battle and wisdom. Also the

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:20

patron goddess of the city of Athens. So some versions of her

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:25

mythology and it's another thing to keep in mind is that there's

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:27

a lot of different stories about all these goddesses, but there

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:31

isn't really a game, there's a cannon, but you know, they all

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:37

kind of become irrelevant. Some versions of the story have

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:41

Pallas not having a mother, but just emerged from Zeus his head.

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:46

Others have story going that Zeus swallowed her mother Metis

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:52

is the goddess of counsel. I believe maybe trying to, like

Kyle Pierce: 00:01:57

misremembering but trying to cover up this affairs from from

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:01

Hera.

Tristan Paylor: 00:02:03

No way. Having an affair.

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:10

He's handful, but yeah, after swallowing her, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:14

know, he got this headache and some of the stories. Some of the

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:19

gods had to like split his head open with an axe to get her out.

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:25

But despite all that, also Theano which is the Theano

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:29

really least initially was Zeus is favorite child, you get a

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:34

bunch of them. And it's kind of where you get some of the

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:38

significations associated with Pallas of daddy's girls. So you

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:44

know where we get a Pallas Athena from just to name one

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:48

version of the story, Athena ended up killing her best friend

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:53

in a sparring match been sort of overcome with guilt. She took

Kyle Pierce: 00:02:58

the name in honor of her dead friend Pallas. Hence you get you

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:03

know, Pallas Athena or just Athena. Another version, though,

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:08

has Pallas has seen as father, interestingly, who had tried to

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:13

rape her and she killed him and took his skin and wore it as

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:18

like a cape, I think and took his name is kind of a part of

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:23

the trophy, you know, which, while maybe not a big part of

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:28

the sort of canon but you know, can't really say exists.

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:32

Generally. Pallas Athena is Zeus, his daughter, it does, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:37

know, seem to kind of play into some of the themes that show up

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:42

with Pallas, which you can get from other parts of the story,

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:47

but irrelevant nonetheless. Anyway, Zeus made Pallas Athena

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:52

along with his other son, Aries, god and goddess of war, like

Kyle Pierce: 00:03:57

they're just kind of in charge of war. Generally, a Pallas is

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:02

known to be responsible for some of the more I just the strategic

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:07

and sort of thinking components. The idea of like honorable war,

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:13

you know, gentleman's war, if you will.

Tristan Paylor: 00:04:17

It's more of a having a code. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:19

a code of ethics. With war. That's the thing with

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:23

Athena that really distinguishes her from Aries. Well, Aries is

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:28

you know, kind of just like Bloodlust mode, just kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:32

rushed into battle and just kind of go into berserker mode and,

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:37

you know, slaughter everyone, Pallas, you know, come up with a

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:42

plan, have a strategy and she was distinctly not emotional

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:47

about her approach to really anything and for the most part,

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:52

she did have, you know, episodes of emotion, but that is kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:04:57

one of the important components of her significations is that

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:01

sort of cold A tactical, unemotional approach to things.

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:06

But as a result though she actually repeatedly and only

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:10

defeated Aries in you know many of their little Spats like ended

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:15

up humiliating him on multiple occasions. There is a theme

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:20

there to have several stories. We'll cover all of them but

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:24

where she really just mean she ends up showing up a lot of the

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:29

other male gods. Then another important part of things is

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:34

mythology and actually significations is that she was a

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:38

big patron of a lot of heroes from mythology. like crap, who

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:43

was the one that killed Medusa, you remember

Tristan Paylor: 00:05:47

was that Perseus?

Unknown: 00:05:49

Percy sounds right.

Tristan Paylor: 00:05:51

Yes, Perseus?

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:52

Yeah, Perseus. Interesting. She has this

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:55

strange relationship with Perseus partly in that she is

Kyle Pierce: 00:05:59

kind of responsible for creating the monster that he ended up

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:04

being famous and mythology for. For killing that was Medusa.

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:09

Now, there's a lot of versions of this and you get kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:13

different versions of Athena, depending on which version of

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:18

the story you go with. They all kind of become irrelevant. But

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:22

in one version, basically Pallaswas so pissed that let's

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:27

back up. Medusa was originally a priestess, and had you know

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:31

certain sacred vows to uphold, one of which was chastity and

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:36

believe it was Poseidon, who came down in rapes Medusa and,

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:41

as a result, Athena just kind of seeing, you know, that, like,

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:45

Oh, she had sex with somebody. So she broke her vow of

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:49

chastity, she needs to be punished. So she turned her into

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:54

a Gorgon, and eventually sponsored the hero that ended up

Kyle Pierce: 00:06:58

taking her out. And there's another version where Athena

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:03

turned Medusa into a Gorgon, to give her the power to protect

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:07

yourself against, you know, other others who tried to

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:11

assault her. So you kind of get mixed significations, they're

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:16

all of what, you know, potentially relevant. But so

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:20

some of the key themes that come up with Pallas central primarily

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:25

on women taking on traditionally male roles, but it seems also

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:30

men in traditionally female roles within outperforming men

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:34

and men feeling threatened by by women, but you also get women in

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:39

positions of authority, in some cases seeking approval of male

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:44

authority figures, unconsciously or consciously, you know, so get

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:49

the what can come up? It seems like as emasculation you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:54

men being, you know, defeated by women in a sense, or what

Kyle Pierce: 00:07:58

ultimately seems to kind of play out is this sort of questioning

Kyle Pierce: 00:08:03

of what the actual roles of men and women are sort of

Kyle Pierce: 00:08:07

challenging them or merging and blending them? And drogyny seems

Kyle Pierce: 00:08:12

to come up a lot with Pallas as well as just kind of the idea of

Kyle Pierce: 00:08:17

redefining gender roles. And then of course, you know, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:08:22

got your your strategic thinking. Is there any other

Kyle Pierce: 00:08:26

significations? You want to mention? Tristan?

Tristan Paylor: 00:08:31

Yeah, the mythology of Athena is

Tristan Paylor: 00:08:34

interesting to me. In terms of defying gender norms or gender

Tristan Paylor: 00:08:39

roles, there's even a role reversal in the story of her

Tristan Paylor: 00:08:44

birth. Yeah, when you think about it, Zeus gives birth you

Tristan Paylor: 00:08:49

know, this patriarchal male sky god you know, the most masculine

Tristan Paylor: 00:08:55

possible God you could think of in this cultural context kind of

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:00

goes into labor and you know, in the story, he has this horrible

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:03

migraine and he needs one of the other gods to cleave his head

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:08

open with an axe in order to give birth to his daughter

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:11

that's an excellent so there's a role reversal even in that

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:14

story. But there's a her relationships with women with

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:25

other women in her mythology are very interesting. They're not

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:29

great. They there's the myth of a restless or restless is you

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:37

know, I won't tell the whole story from beginning to end

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:39

because it's quite long and detailed, but essentially

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:42

Orestis is put on trial for killing his own mother. And you

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:48

know that the the aren yeas the monstrous beings who will chase

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:55

after people who've broken the laws of fate who've broken sort

Tristan Paylor: 00:09:58

of the moral laws The Universe go after arrest us for killing

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:02

his mother. But he gets this trial. And it's actually Athena

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:09

who casts the deciding vote that arrest us is innocent. And the

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:14

argument in favor of his innocence, I can't remember who

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:18

delivers the argument originally. It's a it's a male

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:25

figure, who says, basically, the father is the only true parent

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:31

of a child that a woman is basically just a nurse, you

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:35

know, the, it's the father seed that creates the child. So the

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:39

woman is just like someone who takes care of it for a while,

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:42

but not actually, she doesn't actually have any rights over

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:46

the child. And Athena, you know that the vote is totally split.

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:55

And Athena hears this argument, and she says, Well, I was born

Tristan Paylor: 00:10:59

without a mother. So this logic holds true as far as I'm

Tristan Paylor: 00:11:04

concerned. And she casts a vote that arrest us is innocent, that

Tristan Paylor: 00:11:09

it's, it's not killing a parent, if he kills his own mother,

Tristan Paylor: 00:11:13

basically, which is, like a pretty upsetting sale, it's

Unknown: 00:11:17

a pretty big jump a bit of a stretch logically,

Tristan Paylor: 00:11:24

is, it is a huge stretch.

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:26

I think the takeaway that I sort of take

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:28

from that story, and others is that given the you know, very

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:35

patriarchal structure of Greek society, and even, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:41

Mount Olympus, they're pretty tolerant of Athena, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:46

taking on these these masculine male roles. And part of that, I

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:51

think, is that, you know, she is, um, you know, supporting

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:55

that she's supporting the patriarchy in a sense, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:11:59

yeah, she's not questioning those roles. She's really going

Kyle Pierce: 00:12:02

along with them, and really, least in most stories, kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:12:08

part of that system, sort of getting into trouble.

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:12

Yeah, she's, she's kind of denying her own

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:16

femininity and upholding the patriarchy. Here's another one

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:21

of her famous myths is her weaving battle with a Rockne Oh,

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:26

yeah, that's a good one. At thena not only was she the

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:30

goddess of wisdom, and warfare, and the city of Athens, but she

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:36

was also a goddess of artisans and craftspeople, particularly

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:40

weaving. So AraC Nee, was an extremely skilled Weaver. And,

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:48

you know, thought that she was better even than Athena and they

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:51

end up you know, Athena gets really pissed off about that,

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:54

and they end up having kind of a weave off, where they both

Tristan Paylor: 00:12:59

create these beautiful tapestries. At the end of the

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:03

day, it does not end very well for acne. So it's just another

Unknown: 00:13:10

exam. turns her into a spider, right?

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:14

Yes, she ends up will Iraq. Iraqi originally

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:17

hangs herself, because she's so distraught over the results of

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:22

her interaction with Athena, and Athena actually takes some pity

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:27

on her and turns her into a spider. But nonetheless, it's

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:32

just like an every single tale. I mean, she was Athena was also

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:37

one of three goddesses who is involved in the story of the

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:42

beginning of the Trojan War, where the goddess of chaos

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:46

heiress throws she's not invited to a party basically. And in her

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:51

anger, she inscribes on a golden apple, something like you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:13:56

for the most beautiful and throws the golden apple into the

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:01

party and Athena Aphrodite and Hera all fight over this apple

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:06

and then Paris the hero has to choose you know, between them

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:11

for some reason, I don't know all the details of the story,

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:15

but yeah, it's just like every single story where Athena is

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:20

involved with other women in some way she seems to be like

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:25

not in a very there I don't know maybe there are examples is she

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:30

there's the example of Pallas like that was her best friend

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:35

but she also killed her like it just never seems to end well for

Tristan Paylor: 00:14:40

women with encounters with

Kyle Pierce: 00:14:42

ya know, I'd like an aside thought I do kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:14:46

like to think of Greek mythology is a little bit like a sitcom

Kyle Pierce: 00:14:48

sometimes because it's almost like not about the story itself.

Kyle Pierce: 00:14:51

It's about you know, putting the characters in the situation.

Kyle Pierce: 00:14:55

And, you know, learning something about the character or

Kyle Pierce: 00:14:57

the character learn something about themselves, you know, In

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:00

that situation, but yeah, you're right. It doesn't seem to end to

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:05

go well for, for women around her. So yeah, she does seem to

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:10

really kind of deny a lot of the the traditional feminine roles,

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:15

like motherhood as well. I mean, she was one of the Virgin

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:18

goddesses. I think there was one situation where story of where I

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:23

can't remember. Terrible. The nice asbestos was the Vestas

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:27

that.

Tristan Paylor: 00:15:27

Tried to Yeah, Festus tried to have his way

Tristan Paylor: 00:15:30

with her and she fought him off. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:32

she fought them off. It was kind of like, it's

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:35

really mixed some really pathetic. Yeah, it kind of, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:39

know, blow blows one on on her thigh. And she kind of like

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:43

brushes it off and with a rag drops it on the ground. And that

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:49

rag impregnates Gaia, right? The Earth, and birth this baby. This

Kyle Pierce: 00:15:56

kind of kind of half got it's like a demigod, baby. Right. And

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:03

it's not really her responsibility. I mean, it's not

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:05

hers. And even if it was, she might not think that, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:09

she, it's not actually her baby, if, nonetheless, she does take

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:12

responsibility for it. So there is like a highly principled

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:17

element to Athena's personality perspective and approach to

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:21

things. But not maternal, she puts the baby in a box, think

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:27

she can't remember she goes exactly. But she basically is

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:31

like, alright, and leaving this box here. There's a snake in

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:35

there who's gonna, you know, nurture, protect this, this

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:38

baby, the snakes were very much associated with like wisdom. So

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:42

I mean, it kind of makes sense that she would have a snake

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:46

raise this baby and that sort of Greek mythology logic sort of

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:50

way. But I guess there were some women around that saw her leave

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:55

the box, and they hear a baby crying. And you know, these

Kyle Pierce: 00:16:58

women, even though Athena told them not to open the box, just

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:03

leave it. They end up opening the box. And depending on which

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:09

version of the story you hear, you know, they one way or the

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:12

other, they all end up dead, either eaten by the snake or,

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:15

you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:16

it really never ends. Well, for women. Yes.

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:18

Stories.

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:19

Yeah. And it's just like Athena, like, I don't have

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:22

time for this. You know, like, Yeah, I'll do you know, the

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:26

decent thing. I'll give you a box baby. I think she doesn't

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:31

like training. But when it gets older, it's just very, it's just

Kyle Pierce: 00:17:35

not maternal. The instinct isn't terribly maternal with with Pallas.

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:40

Yeah, it's more dutiful. It's like, well, how

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:41

Festus is not going to take responsibility for this, because

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:45

men in this culture do not. So, you know, I would, I guess I'll

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:52

do something about it so that this baby doesn't just die, it's

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:55

really more of a sense of moral obligation than it is, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:17:58

an actual desire to nurture the child.

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:00

Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's what I find

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:04

interesting about the whole story, or what, you know, it

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:07

makes me wonder what exactly it was. What it triggered, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:11

know, with the Greeks, like, what sort of things got brought

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:14

up? Because I mean, the, the Athenians, at least they named

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:16

their, their city after. And this is, you know, a level of

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:20

research I haven't gotten into, but I think generally, I mean,

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:24

you get, what maybe come from a modern perspective is, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:30

a woman who doesn't really recognize the distinction

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:34

between, you know, male and female roles, at least not as

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:39

far as they applied to her. That she, you know, in a sense, like,

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:43

oh, well, if men aren't responsible for nurturing and

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:48

doing this and that with babies, like, Why should I, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:51

just fair, I kind of find it, I don't know. Something about the

Kyle Pierce: 00:18:58

figure of Pallas Athena that really sort of forces, at least

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:02

maybe from the modern perspective, men to challenge

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:06

you know, their own kind of traditional role, like, Well,

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:10

hey, if I'm having this negative reaction to what she's doing,

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:12

maybe I should be, you know, be held to the same standard, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:16

know, as maybe holding women to you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:19:22

did we want to maybe get into some examples

Tristan Paylor: 00:19:26

that you want to share your own personal example.

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:31

Yeah, so, Pallas is really the one that I would say,

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:35

is most responsible for selling me on asteroids, at least

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:39

initially, and I can see them so I have Pallas in an exact

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:44

conjunction with Mars in my chart. Within 10 minutes, it's

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:49

very tight one and for me, you know, Mars rules my my I tend in

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:54

my fifth houses, you know, it's pretty connected to my chart,

Kyle Pierce: 00:19:59

either by aspect or rulership. But I found some of the

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:03

symbolism they're really hard to ignore, especially when, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:08

know, while I can maybe see some of the themes more broadly, in

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:13

my chart, the Pallas element really seemed to add some

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:17

specificity. Like, for example, the one of the really, kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:22

simple ones is that Mars rules, mites, the dispositor of my

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:27

moon, and moon being associated with the mother, and also rules

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:32

my 10th house, so that does traditionally get associated

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:36

with the mother, sometimes, not one that I always used to be

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:41

some connection there. But my mother was a lieutenant colonel

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:46

in the army, you know, another element of that, that shows up,

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:51

prominently, having Mars you know, ruling my fifth house,

Kyle Pierce: 00:20:55

just like the house of children is, you know, when my son was

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:00

first born, you know, his mom was going to college, and I

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:05

ended up taking on a lot of the Navy, traditionally, roles

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:10

traditionally prescribed to women, you know, or to mothers,

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:14

you know, we're getting a lot of Mr. Mom jokes at the time. And

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:19

not that that's uncommon at all these days. But, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:24

ruling my 10th I was a massage therapist for about 10 years.

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:29

And that is a traditionally it's more of a female dominated

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:33

industry. And even you know, what's astrology is probably,

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:38

you know, both the consumers and the practitioners of astrology

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:43

are probably a majority of women. My partner, Megan, she

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:48

has a palace, hanging out with her first house ruler. And while

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:53

you know, she may not necessarily recognize it, I

Kyle Pierce: 00:21:57

definitely see her as a very strong kind of palace type, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:01

know, kind of strong willed and a sort of woman who's not, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:06

know, afraid to stand up for herself. I would say that those

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:11

types of women have been a big part of my life. And, and I

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:16

guess I, you know, maybe seeing that conjunction, maybe made me

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:21

realize how much that's a very distinct part of my life that is

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:26

maybe not something that I tend to take for granted but

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:30

something that is maybe not the norm for most people.

Tristan Paylor: 00:22:36

Do you want to tell the story about shooting

Tristan Paylor: 00:22:40

your friend in the teeth? Because that was my favorite.

Tristan Paylor: 00:22:44

That was the clincher for me.

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:47

Yeah, when I was a kid I really loved playing

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:52

Airsoft, right and those little not quite BB guns, but you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:22:58

you shoot and they hurt and you know, as long as you wear

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:01

goggles, you're probably fine. But on two occasions, I

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:06

accidentally shot two different friends front teeth out with the

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:11

airsoft gun, leaving giant gaping holes in the front of my

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:15

mouth. In both cases, the parents had to run them off to

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:18

you know, emergency dental I don't know I guess there's

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:25

emergency dentists but I remember they had to leave

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:26

immediately. And nobody ever wanted to play airsoft with me

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:33

again. And I also felt extremely guilty. Fortunately, I didn't

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:38

get you know, the worst case scenario that I didn't kill any

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:42

friends, but I did.

Tristan Paylor: 00:23:45

Didn't have to take on their names. Yeah, a

Tristan Paylor: 00:23:47

friend of yours in in honor of accidentally killing them with

Tristan Paylor: 00:23:52

airsoft guns.

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:54

Yeah, it also bears noting that Mars isn't an

Kyle Pierce: 00:23:58

overcoming square with a bunch of 11th House planets. Just kind

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:02

of adds adds to that.

Tristan Paylor: 00:24:06

Yep. Cena and Mars are literally overcoming

Tristan Paylor: 00:24:13

the planets in Kyle's 11th house which represent friendship.

Tristan Paylor: 00:24:18

Yeah, so

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:19

you know don't be afraid to be friends with me

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:22

though everybody

Tristan Paylor: 00:24:25

I haven't lost any teeth yet

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:27

yet. Played airsoft with me

Tristan Paylor: 00:24:33

this is part of the fun and excitement though

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:36

yeah that's that's the things I'm like Pallas you

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:40

know I went if you get a sparring match with me, just

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:45

goes just going full warrior mode and you might die that's

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:50

another big Pallas thing. And my god there's just so many I love

Kyle Pierce: 00:24:56

strategy games. strategy video games. I you know my dad House

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:02

for 1000 dad introduced me to them even went to some really

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:07

nerdy war game conventions. And I just I just love it. I love

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:13

strategy of chess, anything that has to do with outwitting your

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:19

opponent. It's great.

Tristan Paylor: 00:25:22

Yeah, this is my my delineation. Now, if you have

Tristan Paylor: 00:25:25

Mars conjunct Pallas Ruling Your fifth house, this is the way you

Tristan Paylor: 00:25:30

like to have fun.

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:32

It is. Yeah, and that's another part of it, too,

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:36

is just tell everybody all my personal secrets that Mars is in

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:40

my eighth house. And it's, you know, the eighth house is

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:45

traditionally called the idol place. And one way that, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:50

know, Mars conjunct Pallas in my eighth house is has maybe

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:54

manifested that signification is one way that I have maybe gotten

Kyle Pierce: 00:25:59

myself into trouble by not doing the things I'm supposed to do is

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:04

by playing you know, strategy video games instead. The problem

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:09

of mine for a while that I really had to I had to pry

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:14

myself away still, you know, if a really good game is coming

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:18

out, I can't even I like, like, I can't look at any previous for

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:23

it. Because I'm, you know, if I start playing that my

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:28

productivity is just gone for a good month. So yeah, let's, uh,

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:33

let's see the thing it's, you know, well, the Fix You know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:37

the the net everything they deliver is awful. You know, some

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:42

of its rather mundane or even fun, like, there's nothing wrong

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:47

with liking strategy, war games. Just you know, tending to overdo

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:52

it, which I think maybe a lot of people with Mars ruled fifth

Kyle Pierce: 00:26:57

houses might have to be careful of,

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:00

not me. I never do anything is exalted

Kyle Pierce: 00:27:06

Mars ruling. I think that's the thing with

Kyle Pierce: 00:27:09

exalted malefics is they're just no fun. You know, they're, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:27:13

know, having fun because

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:15

I was fun when I was younger, but it was very

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:17

much to my detriment. So I just I mean, that's that's the thing

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:20

with Mars is going from one extreme to the other. I was a

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:23

typical Mars ruled fifth house person and partied way too hard

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:28

and was just hell bent on self destruction. And then I the

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:35

pendulum swung to the opposite extreme. And now you know, I

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:39

have responsible fun. I have Mars, I have appropriately Mars

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:43

and Capricorn fun, but I had to explore the opposite extreme

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:46

first before that happened. And who knows, maybe it will swing

Tristan Paylor: 00:27:49

the other way.

Kyle Pierce: 00:27:51

Maybe? Yeah. Your midlife crisis or something?

Kyle Pierce: 00:27:56

Yeah, exactly. But maybe just a general lesson about Obama

Kyle Pierce: 00:28:00

Olympics. Is that Yeah, they just tend towards extremes. You

Kyle Pierce: 00:28:02

know, I similarly, you know, after becoming a parent

Kyle Pierce: 00:28:05

especially, really had to rein in some of those marginal fifth

Kyle Pierce: 00:28:11

house activities in order to be a responsible parent.

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:16

Should I maybe get into Pallas and Katharine

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:19

Hepburn's chart?

Unknown: 00:28:21

Yes, do

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:23

so, Katharine Hepburn, as I mentioned earlier,

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:28

had Scorpio rising. And she had the moon and Pallas conjunct in

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:34

Taurus, in her seventh house, opposing you know, Juno, who I

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:40

discussed earlier, and so, you know, again, we're sort of

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:46

fleshing out and giving more detail to what her relationships

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:52

were like, being someone who was very independent and very much

Tristan Paylor: 00:28:58

married to her work in a lot of ways. And, you know, Athena

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:04

being a virgin goddess, you know, being someone who, you

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:09

know, didn't answer to a husband. But I think, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:15

pal Pallas being conjunct the moon really came across in her

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:21

personality. She was known for being very spirited, and her the

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:27

characters that she played

Unknown: 00:29:30

to, yes, actually for time period. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:34

I mean, she was with she was born in 1907. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce: 00:29:42

She was very known for I mean, she was actively

Kyle Pierce: 00:29:46

involved in the, like, women's suffrage and stuff, right. Or

Kyle Pierce: 00:29:50

was it? Yeah, it was

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:51

her her mom. Both of her parents were very

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:54

progressive. And her mother would go to votes for women

Tristan Paylor: 00:29:59

demonstration. and Catherine would join her mom at those

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:02

demonstrations. The household really encouraged freedom of

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:06

speech and, you know, open debate on various topics. Her

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:13

parents were actually like they would get in some trouble in

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:16

their community for being so progressive. They caused a bit

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:18

of a stir. So, and she she was described as a tomboy as a

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:24

child. She actually had a male name for herself, she would call

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:29

herself Jimmy, and cut her hair short. And her dad taught all of

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:35

the children various athletic skills, swimming, running,

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:41

wrestling, all that kind of stuff. And he taught the kids

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:44

daddy's girl was she maybe a little I don't know, if she

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:46

stayed from what I've read. She remained close to both of her

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:50

parents throughout her life. But her, her dad taught the kids to

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:55

play golf, and that in particular, became one of

Tristan Paylor: 00:30:58

Katherine's early passions. At one point, she was taking daily

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:03

lessons, and she got so good that she reached the semi final

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:07

of the Connecticut Young Women's Golf Championship. She also she

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:13

really loves like swimming. And she used to take ice cold swims

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:18

every morning saying that the better the medicine, the better

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:22

it is for you. Which just really that really feels the thena to

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:27

me.

Unknown: 00:31:28

That is yeah. Sorry, thinking the she Ra.

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:34

familia de, I really need to watch that show.

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:38

female equivalent of he-man. Like recent reboot, I've seen a

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:42

couple episodes of it. And it's really good, but I haven't, I

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:45

haven't seen enough of it. My favorite there's this beautiful

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:52

image of Katharine Hepburn and one of her early roles,

Tristan Paylor: 00:31:56

literally dressed up in this like mythological Greek Amazon

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:01

garb. So like, literally looking like Athena says early roll was

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:07

a film called The Warriors husband. And this film tells the

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:12

story of the Amazons who possessed the sacred girdle of

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:18

Diana. And so in the society that's portrayed in this film,

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:23

women actually play the traditionally male role in their

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:27

society, where they have all the positions of political power,

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:31

and they're the Warriors. And it's the men who stay at home

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:34

and care for children and play sort of a subordinate role. So

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:38

the drama in this film is that, you know, Hercules steals the

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:43

girdle of Diana and that's when this role reversal happens. And

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:47

then men come to take on the positions of power in a society.

Tristan Paylor: 00:32:54

It's so fitting,

Kyle Pierce: 00:32:55

it's just too perfect. I don't know. It's,

Kyle Pierce: 00:32:58

it's kind of the moon ruling sort of fifth house, right? Or

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:03

is it her?

Tristan Paylor: 00:33:04

ninth house is cancer.

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:07

Yeah, that's right. I mean, she had some pretty

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:11

strong political beliefs too. As I recall, a lot of my thoughts

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:16

too are coming from the watch the movie The Aviator, Cate

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:20

Blanchett did a great job portraying Katharine Hepburn but

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:24

there's a scene where Howard Hughes is in meeting her family

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:29

for the first time and like they're just having this like

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:33

really impassioned like political discussion at the

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:37

table like very like liberal liberal the oriented one and the

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:42

Howard Hughes being more conservative like it's like

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:46

really gets like really upset about it but regardless, yeah,

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:50

but it's like Pallas is just having having our way with

Kyle Pierce: 00:33:55

Katharine Hepburn.

Tristan Paylor: 00:33:57

Yeah, there's so many of her roles exemplify this

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:01

archetype. There is i know i i spent budget today just looking

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:06

at clips of Katharine Hepburn in her various roles. And now I

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:11

feel like I need to go deeper into the rabbit hole and just

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:15

binge a whole bunch of Katharine Hepburn movies. There's one well

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:20

known movie she was in called Adam's rib, and she played a

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:25

defense attorney. And the person she was defending in this film

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:30

was a woman accused of shooting her cheating husband. And the

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:35

drama in the movie comes from the prosecuting lawyer actually

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:39

being the husband of Katharine Hepburn's character, so they end

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:44

up kind of on opposite sides of this legal battle about this

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:49

woman who has been accused of killing her husband for

Tristan Paylor: 00:34:53

infidelity. It's just it's very modern day Pallas. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce: 00:34:57

you know, I'm there to it. Like, well in the the

Kyle Pierce: 00:35:01

opposing the debate kind of, I don't know that's,

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:03

yeah, that's yeah, there's a lot I mean, all

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:07

three of other than series, although series is still, you

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:11

know, pretty close to jupiter in the ninth house and Katharine

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:16

Hepburn's chart, so it's not a non event in her chart but Juno,

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:21

and Pallas and Vesta are all very she has one asteroid

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:25

conjunct each of the big three in her chart. Yeah, so it's just

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:30

like all those goddess archetypes are really kind of

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:35

showing up through her body of work.

Kyle Pierce: 00:35:38

Yeah, yeah. It's nuts. Well, I have another

Kyle Pierce: 00:35:42

Pallas example. See a more sane Katharine Hepburn?

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:49

Oh, no, I think I think we've, we've covered her

Tristan Paylor: 00:35:51

pretty well. Yeah.

Kyle Pierce: 00:35:53

So, the example that I have here is Kesha. Kesha

Kyle Pierce: 00:35:57

has Pallas. Within the degree for conjunction with her

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:02

ascendant of technically, it's an out of sign conjunction

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:07

Pallas is at 29 degrees, 34 minutes, or sentence about 33

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:11

minutes. Sounds like a degree. But in the case of like an

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:16

angle, you know, you can definitely see planets, even if

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:21

they're out of sign conjunct the degree of the ascendant or the

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:26

midheaven her are one of the prominent angles, they're still

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:31

very, very visible. So with Kashia I'm glad you brought up

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:36

Pallas being also the God of craftsmanship. You know, being

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:41

highly skilled in your given craft, Kesha, actually very

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:46

skilled songwriter, she wrote over 200 songs for other

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:50

artists. Some of them hits, I think, a couple by for Britney

Kyle Pierce: 00:36:55

Spears, the names are escaping me. She also wrote or CO wrote

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:00

all the songs on her first two albums, one of her albums was called

Tristan Paylor: 00:37:06

warrior. So perfect.

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:10

And that's what's interesting, too, is, is that

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:14

Mars, you know, is not prominent in her chart, at least not

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:19

visible, super visible, it's in Taurus, it's in the sixth house.

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:24

But she does have a very Mars quality that comes out in her

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:28

performances, her sort of attitude. And it is very much,

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:33

you know, rebelling against a lot of traditional gender norms.

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:38

You know, I think one of the things I always sort of

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:42

appreciated about caches, or music videos and songs, it's

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:46

just very, um, she sort of takes on a male role in traditionally

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:51

male role in, you know, like, what, tick tock, which, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:37:56

know, was the longest running number one hit by a female

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:00

artist since 1971, back in 2009. And I just like waking up in the

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:05

morning feeling like P Diddy, you know, in the interview with

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:10

her, she said that, like, you know, I woke up in the morning

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:15

one day, and I was feeling like a pimp, you know, which, just

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:20

like that, I don't know, the traditional male role of being a

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:25

pimp or whatever, but just like feeling, you know, that

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:29

empowered kind of sense of, I can do what I want that, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:34

know, maybe traditionally was reserved for, for men. Her sort

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:38

of donning that and taking that and owning it and empowering you

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:43

know, other woman to feel that way too. And it be okay. Kashia

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:48

is also openly pansexual. But she's also served as a

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:52

officiator of many same sex and opposite sex marriages. She's

Kyle Pierce: 00:38:57

like, pretty outspoken advocate for marriage equality. And just

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:02

a side note, it's not Pallas thing. It's actually a serious

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:07

thing. She has series conjunct Uranus in her first house. And

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:12

one of the more challenging significations of series is

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:16

eating disorders. And she did struggle with bulimia for a

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:21

period of time. But maybe one of the more interesting and

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:25

complicated things that seem to show up for her is her belief

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:30

over a decade long public legal battle with Dr. Luke is her

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:35

producer. i It's such a complicated case that I don't

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:39

want to be kind of too much. Since we'd like the new dispute

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:44

is you know that Dr. Luke, Richard kinds of sexual

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:48

psychological abuse and really has been kind of using his

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:52

leverage, you know, from his powerful position to keep her

Kyle Pierce: 00:39:57

under contract and actually more recently, this is a big story

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:02

that I I'm not going to do justice, but I believe the

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:06

initial rape allegations were dropped by the courts. So it

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:10

became a countersuit where Dr. Luke counter sued her for

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:15

defamation and breach of contract, and then believe that

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:19

there's been a lot of counter suits involved between both of

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:24

them. And I think what I find interesting, most relevant is

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:29

this has been going on for a long time. At one point, Dr.

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:33

Luke, did try to make a deal with her like, hey, drop the

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:38

rape allegations, I will drop, you know, my breach of contract,

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:43

countersuit and everything. And she's like, No, I'd rather you

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:48

know, it's about like the principle it's about, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:52

getting justice. It's not about like, what's convenient for her.

Kyle Pierce: 00:40:57

She seemed like a very Athena mindset is that, you know, the,

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:02

that is why part partially why, you know, the Athenians chose

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:07

her as their their deities, the, you know, the Justice seeking

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:12

elements of, of Athena. Granted, she did have some, some nasty

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:17

revenge components, she could get riled up. But most part me

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:21

she tried to be, be fair. Nonetheless, you know, a lot of

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:26

this was going on during the metoo movement, and she did

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:30

receive, you know, like a ton of support from the artistic

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:35

community and the public at large. She seems like it

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:39

recently, Dr. Luke, have lost his suit, due to a new law that

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:44

is really trying to address

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:48

the way that you know, which rich white men are able to use

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:52

the system, the legal system to basically barrage people with

Kyle Pierce: 00:41:59

counter suits and legal technicalities, that keep them

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:01

from, you know, speaking out against them. And that has been

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:07

working to our advantage. And, you know, it doesn't look like

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:09

the, the final outcome of these legal battles are anywhere near

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:15

over. But, you know, does seem to have turned in her favor.

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:19

Over the last few years, you kind of get that theme of just

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:23

really challenging. Do the structural authority that the

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:30

men have, and recognizing that imbalance and seeking to rectify

Kyle Pierce: 00:42:35

that, you know, that shouldn't Right, right.

Tristan Paylor: 00:42:37

Damn right. I'm thinking about the way mythic

Tristan Paylor: 00:42:41

archetypes evolve over time, relative to the culture they

Tristan Paylor: 00:42:46

find themselves in. And as people start questioning, you

Tristan Paylor: 00:42:51

know, patriarchal norms and start fighting against systemic

Tristan Paylor: 00:42:56

discrimination against women and non binary people, and

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:00

basically, you know, people who are not straights, as men

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:05

who've, you know, dominated our social institutions for quite a

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:10

long time that the archetype of Athena sort of evolves alongside

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:16

that. I'm actually, personally a polytheist. And a question that

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:21

often gets asked, you know, of people who work with, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:26

some of these actual deities is, you know, how can you have a

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:31

relationship with a deity who's done these horrible things in

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:37

their stories? And that sort of idea of mythic literalism that

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:42

the stories of the gods are literally the deeds of the gods?

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:47

I don't think that's necessarily how ancient people understood

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:52

their mess. And it's certainly not how I think most I mean, I

Tristan Paylor: 00:43:57

can't speak for all polytheists. But, you know, I don't meet many

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:03

polytheists to take the myths literally, it's more a case of,

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:08

you know, people have an experience of something that

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:12

seems sacred or divine, and they give it a name, but then they

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:17

have to refer back to their own culture in order to flesh out

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:23

what they've experienced. And so if they have this experience of

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:28

a Divine Sense of female authority, within an extremely

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:33

patriarchal, extremely misogynistic culture, you end up

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:37

with these kinds of stories where like, there's a bit of

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:42

conflict inherent in these in the classical Athena stories

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:47

where there's a kind of rejection of other women that

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:51

goes on in these stories. And I guess I'm, you know, looking at

Tristan Paylor: 00:44:57

Pallas in actual birth charts of, you know, modern people It

Tristan Paylor: 00:45:02

makes me kind of hopeful that that our experience of that

Tristan Paylor: 00:45:06

archetype is starting to change.

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:10

When you think of like how that archetype would

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:12

function in Greek society, yeah, which is very patriarchal and

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:16

male dominated, you know, how that archetype functions is, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:20

know, just taking on the some degree, the qualities of

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:24

patriarchal structure it's in, you know, in that being sort of

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:28

how she is able to exercise the power that she has, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:34

and even, yeah, Zeus, like, getting the validation from her

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:39

father, her only parent for doing that, you know, there's a

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:44

lot of motivation, therefore, for her to, to keep supporting

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:49

that system. And, you know, I can definitely see how that

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:52

theme can show up in people's charts as well. But like you

Kyle Pierce: 00:45:55

were saying, of the evolving cultural landscape, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:00

there's like versions of these lists that predate even the

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:03

Greeks and that, you know, we're very different depending on the

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:09

context, I think there are a lot of astrologers now who are

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:11

working with kind of pre patriarchal versions of the

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:14

myths, which is not something I know enough about to speak on.

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:18

But there's definitely a lot of nuance to, to the way these

Kyle Pierce: 00:46:22

archetypes can be used.

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:24

And it's like in, in an extremely patriarchal

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:27

system, you know, the only way for a woman to have power is to

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:32

align herself with that system and against other women, which

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:36

you see in the classical mythology around Athena, you

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:40

see, illustrated really clearly in the myth of ernestus. In that

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:45

trial, where, you know, she's, she says, you know, the, in, in

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:50

that myth, she says, You know, I'm on the side of male

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:54

supremacy, essentially. Yeah. And then, you know, you see

Tristan Paylor: 00:46:58

figures like Katharine Hepburn, or like Kesha, who are not

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:02

necessarily aligning themselves with, you know, the dominant

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:07

male institution in order to have power, they're claiming it

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:11

for themselves. Yeah, so that's a big shift away from, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:16

the only way I can have power is to, you know, kind of side with

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:21

the patriarchy versus no, I'm going to claim my own power,

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:25

which is, you know, my birthright to have this power

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:29

and to have agency and it is over and against the patriarchy

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:34

instead of siding with it.

Kyle Pierce: 00:47:36

Well, I think that's, that's a really good

Kyle Pierce: 00:47:38

point, because so much of the Athena archetype is just the

Kyle Pierce: 00:47:45

word like entitlement gets, you know, has like negative

Kyle Pierce: 00:47:47

connotations into it, but like, that was just the theme of from

Kyle Pierce: 00:47:49

the start, like that was who Athena was, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:53

she was born a warrior clad fully clad in

Tristan Paylor: 00:47:56

armor, she emerged she was had wielding a spear. Let me groans

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:00

just Yeah, powerful right from the get go.

Kyle Pierce: 00:48:04

But I think, yeah, with like, you know, catch up,

Kyle Pierce: 00:48:06

one of the things so attractive about her is that, yeah, she

Kyle Pierce: 00:48:08

does have that, like, she exudes that, like I'm entitled to this

Kyle Pierce: 00:48:11

power, like, it's not up for debate, or to be questioned. It

Kyle Pierce: 00:48:16

just is. And I think that's part of what the archetype is about.

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:26

Should we move on to Vesta?

Unknown: 00:48:29

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:32

All right. I will start with some

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:36

astronomical notes on Vesta, which is the brightest asteroid

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:41

visible from Earth, it can at times be faintly visible to the

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:47

naked eye. Even though it's not the biggest of the asteroids,

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:53

it's extremely reflective, which is kind of neat, because Vesta

Tristan Paylor: 00:48:57

is the goddess of the hearth fire. So the brightness and

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:01

reflectiveness of the asteroid is symbolically relevant here.

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:06

There's another fun astronomical fact about Vesta. That makes it

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:12

unique. And I'm quoting from the Max Planck journal here. The

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:19

asteroid Vesta is unique. Unlike all other minor planets that

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:24

orbit the Sun within the main belt between the orbits of Mars

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:27

and Jupiter. Vesta has a differentiated inner structure.

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:32

A crust of cooled lava covers a rocky mantle and a core made of

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:36

iron and nickel, quite similar to the terrestrial planets

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:39

Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars. Scientists therefore believe

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:44

this Onion Lake asteroid to be a proto planet, a relict, a relic

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:48

from an early phase of planet formation more than four and a

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:52

half billion years ago. All other proto planets either

Tristan Paylor: 00:49:56

accumulated to form planets or broke apart due to via went to

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:00

collisions. And another shorter way of making this point, just

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:05

from Wikipedia is festa is the only known remaining rocky

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:09

protoplanet with a differentiated interior of the

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:12

kind that formed the terrestrial planets. So it's, it's a really

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:17

interesting piece of the history of our solar system.

Kyle Pierce: 00:50:22

I thought series and pilots were both proto

Kyle Pierce: 00:50:27

planets.

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:28

Maybe they are and it's just that they're not

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:31

different kinds. Yeah, they don't they don't have that

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:33

differentiated interior that makes them you know, the same

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:36

kind of protoplanet that formed the earth or mercury.

Kyle Pierce: 00:50:41

It's more like reading the differentiated

Kyle Pierce: 00:50:42

interior as being like, the main thing. But yeah, no,

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:46

yeah. I haven't, you know, really, that that's

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:49

okay. I haven't really figured out you know, how, what this

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:51

might symbolize if we're trying to draw some symbolism from the

Tristan Paylor: 00:50:54

astronomy, but, you know, any listeners are interested in what

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:00

that might mean? What sort of meaning we might attach to it.

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:03

There it is.

Kyle Pierce: 00:51:05

sort of thinking about how we'll get into maybe

Kyle Pierce: 00:51:08

getting ahead a little bit now. Vesta, the goddess doesn't

Kyle Pierce: 00:51:12

really have any images of her. Almost like, religion just kind

Kyle Pierce: 00:51:17

of represented as like an object like a like a torch. Yeah,

Kyle Pierce: 00:51:21

almost like a I don't know, like a disembodied planet.

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:26

Yeah, maybe. I think the cult of Vesta was the

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:31

last one, when Rome was Christianized to be totally

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:36

disbanded. So maybe there's a bit of last one standing kind of

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:39

symbolism there.

Unknown: 00:51:41

Oh, I didn't know that. And that makes sense.

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:44

And there is also a group have smaller

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:48

asteroids with a composition similar to Vesta that were

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:53

probably created from a huge impact. And they hang around in

Tristan Paylor: 00:51:57

the same area, and they are called Vesta, Boyd's. So I find

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:03

that very fitting since the festa. Yeah, has will not just

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:07

any call but has a dedicated group of people who are

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:12

constantly attending her flame at all times. The Vestal

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:17

virgins,

Kyle Pierce: 00:52:18

Vestal virgins. Yeah, that's, that's

Kyle Pierce: 00:52:21

interesting. I like that.

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:23

Yeah, I thought that was fun. So mythologically

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:26

Vesta, was the Roman goddess of the hearth, home and family. And

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:32

her Greek equivalent is Hestia, who is also a goddess of hearth

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:37

home and family. There isn't a lot of mythology around this

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:42

goddess and either one of these iterations. But the cult to

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:48

Vesta in ancient Rome is pretty fascinating. Like Kyle was

Tristan Paylor: 00:52:53

saying, the there wasn't really like a human sort of

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:00

personification for Vesta. She was mostly just symbolized by

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:04

her sacred fire, which, in the temple to Vesta was never

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:10

allowed to go out. So the Vestal virgins were tasked with

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:13

maintaining this sacred fire. And, you know, it was It was

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:17

symbolic of the whole state of Rome. Vesta was a virgin

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:23

Goddess. I believe in the Greek myth. Hestia refuses to marry

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:30

anybody. And interestingly, in Roman religion, she was given

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:35

the title of mother and she has some connection with

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:39

agriculture. So sort of an interesting paradox there of

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:45

like a virgin goddess, who is also referred to as mother.

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:51

Yeah.

Unknown: 00:53:53

Overlap with Cirrus a little bit.

Tristan Paylor: 00:53:54

Yeah, so the Vestal virgins were chosen when

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:00

they were children between the ages of six and 10 and taken

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:04

from their families to serve for a 30 year contract in the Temple

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:10

of Vesta. And their duties were tending the sacred fire, they

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:16

made more or less salsa, which was a salted flower that was

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:21

used to consecrate Roman sacrifices, like in public

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:25

sacrifices. So in a sense, the Vestal virgins were like the

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:30

state's housekeepers. They were serving this kind of domestic

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:33

role, but that role was for the entire state and not just for

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:37

one individual household. And it wasn't

Kyle Pierce: 00:54:41

like the fire went out like that was signal like

Kyle Pierce: 00:54:45

the doom of Rome or something.

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:46

Well, it signaled at the very least that

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:48

Vesta had abandoned Rome, which would be a bad thing. And if any

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:54

one of the vessels allowed the fire to go out, she was

Tristan Paylor: 00:54:57

punished. Yeah. Quite brutally. Yeah, it's like many things in

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:05

the ancient world, it was an interesting lifestyle. The

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:09

Vestal virgins had a lot of rights that other women did not

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:14

have in ancient Roman society, they were very, very, very

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:18

honored. When they became priestesses they were legally

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:23

emancipated from their Father's authority. And, you know, in

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:29

public places, they were given the right of way at public games

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:35

or performances, they had a place of honor that was reserved

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:38

for them. They did not need to take an oath, in order to give

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:43

evidence is customary for anyone giving evidence to swear an

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:48

oath. And in the case of the vessels, their word was just

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:52

trusted without question. They were entrusted with wills and

Tristan Paylor: 00:55:58

state documents. The penalty for injuring them was death. And

Tristan Paylor: 00:56:06

they could free condemned prisoners or slaves just by

Tristan Paylor: 00:56:10

touching them. If a person sentenced to death happen to see

Tristan Paylor: 00:56:16

a vessel on their way to being executed, they were

Tristan Paylor: 00:56:19

automatically pardoned. So they have this like, very unique and

Tristan Paylor: 00:56:24

sort of powerful position in society.

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:28

It's interesting to me that, you know, the leftover

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:31

being like the tenders of the attendees of the sacred fire,

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:37

attendees of this like sacred thing, which, you know, kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:42

by proxy makes them sacred. But then, you know, anything that

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:46

sounds like anything they touch, or C, or, you know, anything

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:49

that like, interacts with them kind of become sacred as well.

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:53

You know, like, it makes me think of like signing an

Kyle Pierce: 00:56:56

autograph or something like, you know, somebody famous signs. A

Kyle Pierce: 00:57:02

basketball suddenly that basketball goes from, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 00:57:04

a $10 value to like a $10,000 value.

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:09

Yeah, the, when the 30 year contract was done,

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:13

the vessels were released from their duties, and they were

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:16

given permission to marry and they were very sought after. The

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:21

marriages were generally arranged with, you know, people

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:23

who were well to do and it was supposed to be very good fortune

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:29

to marry a former Vestal virgin. Another sort of interesting

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:34

fact, there are some, you know, along with this sort of paradox

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:39

of the goddess Vesta being at once a virgin, but also

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:43

associated, I guess, to some extent with fertility, if she

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:45

was being referred to with the title of mother, the Vestal

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:49

virgins, tended the cult of a sacred phallus that acted as a

Tristan Paylor: 00:57:57

token of the safety of Rome. So this sacred phallic image was

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:03

contained, I guess, in the temple. And they looked after

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:07

it. And they also hung in effigy of this sacred phallus on

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:15

underneath the chariot of chariot have a general to

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:19

protect him. So there's some weird, like there were a lot of

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:25

phallic amulets that were used as protective magic in ancient

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:30

Rome, but there is this interesting connection between

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:34

the Vestal virgins and that particular image. Which is

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:39

interesting, because, you know, when I was reading Dimitris book

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:44

on the asteroid goddesses, she talked about seeing clients who

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:49

had Vesta very prominent in their charts, and she was kind

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:52

of expecting them. You know, it'd be more not necessarily

Tristan Paylor: 00:58:58

celibate, but I guess, you know, leaning a little more that way.

Tristan Paylor: 00:59:01

And what she actually found were a lot of stories of exploring,

Tristan Paylor: 00:59:07

like, non traditional sexual relationships. So there's this

Tristan Paylor: 00:59:12

sort of, like, the whole issue of sexuality. And you know, the

Tristan Paylor: 00:59:16

whole spectrum of it, I think, is very much connected to the

Tristan Paylor: 00:59:20

Vesta, archetype and astrology.

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:23

Yeah. Like, almost like about it is just kind of

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:27

presenting this idea of sexuality and sacredness. And

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:32

you know, what? I know you think about just the myth, the rest of

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:38

the myth, but the Vestal virgins themselves, you know, they gave

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:41

up school in order to get the privileges, some of which, you

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:46

know, are just what were afforded to men in general, but

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:50

to get like extra privileges, sort of the price for

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:54

emancipation, you know, from being like subordinate to men

Kyle Pierce: 00:59:58

was getting up there. your sexuality,

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:00

yeah, like giving up any sort of intimacy

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:04

with men?

Kyle Pierce: 01:00:04

I mean, literally. Yeah. It's like, oh, well,

Kyle Pierce: 01:00:09

there's something weird about that. And it does seem to be a

Kyle Pierce: 01:00:12

recurring theme once like in society. I don't know, the the

Kyle Pierce: 01:00:16

idea that from the man's perspective, like, oh, once I

Kyle Pierce: 01:00:21

can't have sex with you anymore, now I can respect you and treat

Kyle Pierce: 01:00:25

you as an equal.

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:27

Yeah, that is something that you see, I mean,

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:29

it's still a problem in our culture now. And just to

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:35

specify, you know, what I meant earlier by non traditional

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:40

sexual relationships, what Dimitra said she noticed with

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:43

her clients was like, specifically non monogamy or,

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:47

you know, being intimate outside of a like, partnered

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:50

relationship. Which is interesting, because it's like,

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:53

there's still intimacy going on, but it's happening outside of,

Tristan Paylor: 01:00:58

you know, the traditional monogamous relationship with one

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:03

other person. Which is obviously not virginity, but it's still it

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:09

still kind of like, the virgins where the Vestal virgins were

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:13

exceptional, because they were not married, and they did not

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:17

have, you know, this sort of socially sanctioned sexual

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:21

relationship?

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:23

Yeah, something I would like to maybe to just

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:25

study Vesta more be to, like, see how, you know, a prominent

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:29

despot plays out in the context of like, what aspects it's

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:33

making with other planets? You know, I would imagine that the,

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:37

the other planets, even like just a sign base configuration,

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:40

is gonna maybe influence that planet, similar to the way it

Kyle Pierce: 01:01:43

would, you know, with the, the traditional planets.

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:48

I do have Vesta in the first house in my own

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:52

chart. And one of the areas of emphasis Dimitra, George puts on

Tristan Paylor: 01:01:59

Vesta in her in her work is devotion, having a devotional

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:06

spirituality, and that actually very much rings true for me.

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:13

I've been,

Unknown: 01:02:14

don't you do some of that, like tradition, that

Unknown: 01:02:16

devotional practice just a little, you know, devotional

Unknown: 01:02:18

practice to the

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:19

Goddess just a bit. I've been unusually

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:22

religious for my entire adult life. And there's no, I wasn't

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:26

raised particularly religious. And I tend to be pretty

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:29

skeptical. So it's just odd that I keep kind of getting pulled

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:34

into it. But I was actually, I worked in the church for about

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:41

three years. And I was pretty active in the church and the

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:45

years prior to that, and I have always had, you know, I

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:50

practiced some non traditional spirituality when I was younger,

Tristan Paylor: 01:02:55

as well like witchcraft and dabbled in paganism a bit. So

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:00

whether I was following a pagan or a Christian spiritual path, I

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:06

have always had an altar in my home. And you know, the center

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:11

of Vestas cult is the hearth is the domestic area of devotion

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:16

and sacrifice. I've I've never not had a space for that in my

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:23

home. And it has never not been sort of like the most important

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:27

part of my home, and an area of central focus, but like maybe

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:32

the most, and I do like, have a tendency towards very ecstatic

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:37

religious experiences, which Dimitra talks about in her book,

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:40

too, as being a very Vesta type signification. To the point

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:47

that, at one point in my life, maybe, and I guess, like four

Tristan Paylor: 01:03:53

years ago, something like that. I was dating someone. That

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:02

wasn't really serious yet. But I sat at my altar to pray one

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:08

night and ended up having an ecstatic religious experience.

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:13

And after having that experience, I just didn't, I did

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:17

not want to be in a relationship. I just wanted to

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:23

do my practice and to pray and I ended up leaving that

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:30

relationship. And there was a period of time where I seriously

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:34

considered like taking a vow of celibacy and just being like, I

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:38

don't I don't really feel like being in relationships at all.

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:41

Like, I'm good to just, I'm really getting my emotional and

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:45

spiritual needs met from my devotional practice. So it felt

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:50

kind of like a distraction. And like as a kid, I used to think

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:53

about, you know, joining a monastery and stuff like that.

Tristan Paylor: 01:04:56

Ultimately, that did not end up being the path I took. But it's

Tristan Paylor: 01:05:01

kind of interesting that I've got vest in the first first

Tristan Paylor: 01:05:04

house. And that was at least a serious consideration at some

Tristan Paylor: 01:05:07

point in my life, which is maybe odd. Like, I don't think a lot

Tristan Paylor: 01:05:10

of people seriously consider watching that particular path.

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:17

Alright, I think that you're the best example is

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:22

Believe me, one of the ones that sold me on Vesta was the one

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:25

that sold me on Vesta. Because, you know, we do have very

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:28

similar charts, not that they're exactly the same. But like, I

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:32

invested in some of the second house, it's like the one

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:34

asteroid, it's not really doing anything. It's, you know, my one

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:37

little bit of fire, which seems appropriate, but I want to keep

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:41

it tucked away in my session. But that's something that like,

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:46

yeah, I have no, I've never been, I just have the cynical

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:50

part. I do not have any any devotional practice elements.

Kyle Pierce: 01:05:56

But I know you're saying kind of makes me think about you know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:02

the idea of, you know, taking time, which is not like an

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:06

uncommon practice for people, like take time out of a

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:08

relationship to like, find yourself again, right? Oh, yeah,

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:11

that's a good point. And thinking about, like, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:14

what? It's like, the price of intimacy is sort of down, it's

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:22

like, you're mixing your fire with someone else's, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:26

is it sacred anymore? Or, you know, or does it? I don't know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:31

like festive, like, brings up this question of asking you

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:34

like, what is your sacred space? You know, is that something

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:38

physical? Or is it something deeper?

Tristan Paylor: 01:06:41

Is that something that you would be

Tristan Paylor: 01:06:42

willing to share or potentially sacrifice in order to be in a

Tristan Paylor: 01:06:47

relationship with somebody else? Yeah, as there's a lot.

Kyle Pierce: 01:06:53

You maintain that in the context of

Tristan Paylor: 01:06:56

Yeah, exactly. Maintaining your own and I mean,

Tristan Paylor: 01:06:58

that's, that's also something Dimitra emphasizes in her

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:03

interpretation of Vesta is this kind of idea of being self

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:06

contained and independent? So you know, perhaps there's Vesta

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:13

might bring up some questions around that because when you are

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:16

in a relationship, what is yours becomes your partners and what

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:18

is your partner's becomes your as your life start to mix

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:22

together. And you know, you can still maintain some independence

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:26

in a relationship, but you become more interdependent and

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:31

the, you know, line are where I start and where my partner

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:36

begins, you know, that isn't always totally clear when your

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:41

lives are really meshed together. It's a another

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:46

asteroid that is prominent in the chart of Katharine Hepburn,

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:51

who is just just all the asteroids going on. In her

Tristan Paylor: 01:07:56

chart. Vesta was conjunct her son within a couple of degrees

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:03

in the seventh house. And I know there's been some, I've heard

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:08

some sort of like reinterpretations of the concept

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:13

of the Virgin as being sort of like a self contained woman or

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:19

like someone who is independent, essentially not controlled by a

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:22

man within a patriarchal society. You know, like the

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:25

Vestal virgins had this sort of unique position where they were

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:29

not being controlled by a husband or a father, the way

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:34

other women in their society were and they were granted a

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:40

certain amount of respect and power that other women also were

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:45

not. So yeah, there's there is that sort of like attempt to

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:52

maybe reinterpret that archetype as being you know, the the woman

Tristan Paylor: 01:08:56

who does not need a man who is independent, who's not

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:02

controlled by anyone but herself. And, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:08

Katharine Hepburn, as I've discussed at length was fiercely

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:11

independent, and I don't believe she ever had any children. Her

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:17

marriage was brief, you know, it's a lot of there's some

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:22

overlap between palace and Vesta, obviously, both of them

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:25

being virgin goddesses, and both of them being sort of like

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:29

uniquely positioned in their relationship to men. But even

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:33

though like they have that power, it's still very much

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:36

happening within a patriarchal context, in their mythology, and

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:40

in the cult of Vesta that happened in ancient Rome. So

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:44

that also, I guess, opens up the question of like, how do we work

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:48

with these archetypes now? Like, how do we kind of free those

Tristan Paylor: 01:09:51

archetypes from being under the thumb of the patriarchy?

Kyle Pierce: 01:09:56

Yeah, well, and that's, this makes don't like to

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:02

get to Hepburn. She stay married?

Tristan Paylor: 01:10:05

No, it was very brief. And then she, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:10:10

had a relationship, but was not married and, you know, still

Tristan Paylor: 01:10:16

maintained a fair amount of independence in that

Tristan Paylor: 01:10:20

relationship.

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:21

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting, because it's like

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:25

maintaining, you know, like you said that they're women trying

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:29

to maintain that, that independence and I want to say

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:37

like dignity, or their their authority, or their, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:42

kind of prominence in the world. But in a, you know, male

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:46

dominated world, and how do you preserve that fire? Name, when

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:53

you look at the Vestal virgins who preserved that by by

Kyle Pierce: 01:10:57

becoming a virgin, you know, by, by not allowing men in your

Kyle Pierce: 01:11:03

sacred temple, if you will,

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:05

even in the case of the vessels? You know, they,

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:09

they were essentially abducted as children by the state, the

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:12

state took them away from their parents as children, and they

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:15

had no say, Yeah, but they're still still definitely under the

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:20

control of man. It's just that they're under the control of

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:24

more privileged men who have given them this unique religious

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:28

role that comes with a certain amount of power. But it doesn't

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:32

mean that you know, they're, they're in control of their

Tristan Paylor: 01:11:35

situation in any way.

Kyle Pierce: 01:11:37

So I don't know if you have more to say I'm

Kyle Pierce: 01:11:40

Katharine Hepburn but seems like a really good segue into my

Kyle Pierce: 01:11:43

example. It's here at sea of Mae West, which if you're not

Kyle Pierce: 01:11:47

familiar, very famous actress, like the 1920s 1930s into the

Kyle Pierce: 01:11:53

1940s. Mae West has Taurus rising with Vesta, exactly

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:01

conjunct her ascendant as well series within just a couple of

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:05

degrees, and then Venus ruling the ascendant in cancer,

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:10

applying pretty closely to Juno. So all those three very active

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:15

in her chart, Andrei, prominent Mae West, a bit of a more than a

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:21

bit of a sex symbol, huge sex symbol during that time period,

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:27

it's really known for its kind of like very scandalous,

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:30

scandalously sort of flouting sort of prescribed roles of

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:34

women of modesty. Right. She was an early gay rights activist and

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:41

women's liberation supporter, she was very outspoken about her

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:44

views. And she really kind of made her career. She'd like,

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:49

utilize the controversy, the controversy that she stirred up.

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:54

She said, I believe, in all things, she was known for her

Kyle Pierce: 01:12:57

her quips, you know, she's very clever. And her kind of body

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:04

double entendres, you know, just kind of like ooze sexuality. But

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:10

she said, I believe in censorship, I made a fortune out

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:12

of it. And one of the example of that, early on in a career in

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:18

the 1920s, she wrote, produced and directed, very risky,

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:25

commercially successful plays in New York on Broadway titles,

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:30

which include, you know, the drag the wicked age, pleasure,

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:34

man, and the constant sinner.

Tristan Paylor: 01:13:37

I love this.

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:38

Yeah, very, very religious. Very. Yeah, just

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:44

challenging, that that whole archetype, like very visibly

Kyle Pierce: 01:13:49

well, and

Tristan Paylor: 01:13:50

the whole relationship between religion

Tristan Paylor: 01:13:52

and sexuality is very relevant to her career, and very relevant

Tristan Paylor: 01:13:58

to the Vesta archetype. Well, and it's also

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:01

probably really relevant that Mae West had Mars

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:06

in Aquarius and her 10th house should be in in overcoming sign

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:12

base square with with Vesta and Ceres, so shaking things out.

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:17

Wow. Yeah, I mean, she's really challenging and rebelling

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:21

against that. Those ideas, because, well, here is how it

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:26

plays out. In so in response to a very commercially successful

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:31

play called Sex, just sex.

Tristan Paylor: 01:14:34

Get religiously? Yeah.

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:37

Local religious groups complained to the City

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:40

Council, and the theater was raided. She was arrested along

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:44

with the rest of the cast, and sentenced to 10 days in jail for

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:48

corrupting the morals of youth. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they offered

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:53

to you know, let her go by just paying a fine but she chose to

Kyle Pierce: 01:14:57

spend the 10 days in jail because she wanted to use the

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:00

Controversy to stir up publicity.

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:02

So just love that Torian stubbornness getting

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:06

it done?

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:08

Yeah, and but I don't know, something that I

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:12

sort of think about with Mae West specifically is mean she

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:16

was she was a sex symbol, she was like, almost like a sexual

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:19

goddess of the time, like there. You know, posters of her and a

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:26

lot of young men in the adult men's bedrooms. You know, she

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:33

almost in a sense kind of worshipped herself. There's

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:35

something about the devotional element that is almost like, she

Kyle Pierce: 01:15:41

becomes like, the receiver of the devotion.

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:44

Yeah, that's interesting. And I mean, that's

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:47

kind of true in the case of the Vestal virgins to where, I mean,

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:52

they weren't worshipped as gods or anything, but they were given

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:55

such special reverence by people in their society, because they

Tristan Paylor: 01:15:59

were so associated with the sacred and with, with everything

Tristan Paylor: 01:16:03

that was thought to hold society together. Yeah, you know, Mayor

Tristan Paylor: 01:16:09

was referenced for different reasons, but nonetheless, and

Tristan Paylor: 01:16:12

there's like, there's that referencing around sexuality to

Tristan Paylor: 01:16:16

where the Vestal virgins are sort of given reverence, because

Tristan Paylor: 01:16:20

they're nonsexual May is given reverence, because she is very

Tristan Paylor: 01:16:25

openly sexual.

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:27

Yeah. One, it's almost like she's kind of

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:30

saying, like, like, I can be sexual, you can be sexual, and

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:36

your fire isn't necessarily being compromised, you know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:39

maybe that's not the fire, maybe that's the fire that probably

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:43

what Mars and Aquarius would say is that, you know, the man is

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:46

having you having to believe in, you know, this is the real fires

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:53

is within you, you know, or something like that. And I don't

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:55

think she ever said that, but she was very comfortable, you

Kyle Pierce: 01:16:58

know, taking on that role and challenging, you know, in the

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:01

1920s, a society that would have been terrified of a woman like

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:05

her, but she, you know, they were also deeply drawn to her.

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:10

She was a huge celebrity.

Tristan Paylor: 01:17:12

And she's on my list of heroes already. I really

Tristan Paylor: 01:17:15

knew nothing about her before you.

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:17

Yeah, no, she's awesome. I didn't know what ton

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:20

about her either. But seeing the thing she also similar to

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:24

Katharine Hepburn, never had any children. Also, in she had some

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:30

complicated relationships, one of which, and then, I think one

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:34

of her main relationships actually, early on before her

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:38

professional career, you know, they broke off the romantic

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:40

relationship, but they stayed friends the rest of their lives.

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:46

They live in the same apartment building in to old age, like

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:50

actually had retired and I find interesting. By the end, jazz,

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:55

she divorced her all this controversy about you know,

Kyle Pierce: 01:17:59

whether or not she was married the first one, but she was

Kyle Pierce: 01:18:03

divorced in 40s. And stay single, until 1980s. Making EB

Kyle Pierce: 01:18:12

she died at the age of EB. He for something like that, in her

Kyle Pierce: 01:18:17

80s Good, healthy age.

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:19

I think Katharine Hepburn also remained

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:22

friends with her husband after their divorce, which, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:27

it's not uncommon, but it's certainly, I mean, it's one of

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:30

those things like, I tend to remain friends with most of my

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:33

exes. And I, I'm always shocked that there is still like, a

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:38

weird stigma around that. So I don't know how it was, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:42

for Katharine Hepburn or Mae West, you know, during that time

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:46

period, but, I mean, there certainly is like, people get

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:50

weird about it. If you're still friends with your ex, they're

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:52

always like, Are you sure that's healthy? And you know, people

Tristan Paylor: 01:18:55

are really skeptical about it. I don't know if that's connected

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:01

to the asteroid goddesses in terms of, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:04

unconventional relationships in any way. But

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:08

yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, convention would be that

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:12

you? I don't know. It's whose convention are we talking about?

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:14

But,

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:15

yeah, yeah, no, it's like, where does that come

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:17

from? Yeah, I guess that's the convention is you just don't

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:21

split up. And then I don't know where that idea comes from. I

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:25

just I know my own experiences that you know, I run into this

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:28

fairly often if I tell people I'm friends with exes. They're

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:31

like, Oh, is that? Is that okay? Like, are you sure? That's a

Tristan Paylor: 01:19:35

good idea? Isn't that weird for you?

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:38

Yeah, no, actually. Investor isn't particularly

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:42

prominent for me. But you know, my ex wife and I get along well,

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:48

good and healthy co parenting relationship. And a lot of

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:50

people think that that's, that's weird, like, Oh, you guys should

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:53

hate each other or whatever. But kind of making me think about

Kyle Pierce: 01:19:57

that stuff in the sense that you know, Audrey Hepburn and Mae

Kyle Pierce: 01:20:01

West kind of having that theme of staying friends with the ex.

Kyle Pierce: 01:20:05

It's almost like you're able to, like they were able to be

Kyle Pierce: 01:20:13

respected more when they weren't having sex with the person, you

Kyle Pierce: 01:20:17

know?

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:18

Yeah. Yeah, all of these, all these archetypes

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:23

really highlight the way. Women and femininity in general, are

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:30

defined by sexuality and relationships. And you don't We

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:33

don't have any virgin gods in our astrological Pantheon, were

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:37

noted for being, you know, unique or special in some way,

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:42

or particularly close to the Divine because they're virgins,

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:46

like, they're all. They're all doing whatever they please, on

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:51

that front, they're not really defined by their relationships

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:53

in the same way. You know, it's never Zeus is never introduced

Tristan Paylor: 01:20:57

as the husband of Hera. But Hera is most famously the wife of

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:01

Zeus.

Kyle Pierce: 01:21:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly. What I really love

Kyle Pierce: 01:21:07

about the asteroids are starting to really love about them is

Kyle Pierce: 01:21:12

that even if they did nothing, but just like looking at them,

Kyle Pierce: 01:21:15

and just thinking about these concepts for both men and women,

Kyle Pierce: 01:21:19

like how do you relate to these themes?

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:22

I mean, this conversation and this research

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:24

is also really driving home for me as a non binary person, just

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:28

how incredibly heteronormative and says normative astrology

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:33

still is, like, we're still working with a set of symbols,

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:37

that it's very binary. You know, the, the symbols that we have in

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:42

astrology are given very binary gender assignments. And you

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:47

know, the stories, you know, especially in the case of the

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:51

asteroids, because they don't play the kind of role that the

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:55

traditional planets do, you know, those roles being more

Tristan Paylor: 01:21:58

based on how they participate in a system, you know, like they're

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:02

based in geometry and sign rulership and stuff like that,

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:07

you know, the only sort of interpretive resource that we

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:12

have for working with the asteroids is the mythology of

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:16

their namesake. And, yeah, yeah, so it's, I mean, I, you know, it

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:23

was really just introduced to the asteroids properly this

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:25

week. So, that's still something that's like, in an ongoing way,

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:31

you know, I'm trying to figure out, how do I fit into these

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:34

symbols? And how do I work to change these symbols in such a

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:38

way that they are more inclusive of different experiences that

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:41

are not, you know, says normative or heteronormative

Tristan Paylor: 01:22:46

experiences? Yeah, where do I see myself in all of this?

Kyle Pierce: 01:22:53

You know, whatever your relationship to gender, you

Kyle Pierce: 01:22:58

experience these, you know, archetypes, you're relating to

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:02

them. I think that a lot of maybe male privilege is not

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:06

really having to, or not having to recognize their relationship

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:09

to these themes and concepts. But you are, it's there, like in

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:15

and Astrology can be a really good way of drawing your

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:19

attention to those things. See, you know, for sure how you're

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:22

interacting with them,

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:23

man, it's like I have, I have no choice but to

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:25

grapple with this, because it's constantly on my radar. You

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:30

know, and that's part of privileges, just not having to

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:32

think about it, because you're the default. So, you know, that

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:35

doesn't really set off big alarm bells for you. Or you're not

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:40

sort of forced to think about these ideas day in and day out,

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:44

because they're directly affecting, you know, every

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:46

aspect of your life and making it more difficult or more

Tristan Paylor: 01:23:50

complicated.

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:52

Absolutely. I mean, I know I'm guilty of it some

Kyle Pierce: 01:23:55

green like, I would like to prefer almost like, Oh, my

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:00

inclination is like, Oh, well, the plants are just planets, and

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:02

they have these archetypes and like, I don't really want to

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:04

think about it is gendered but you know, yeah, they're all men.

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:07

They're all men. Like, I don't know if like, it's easy. It's

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:10

easy for me. Cuz I live in a culture where male is almost the

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:16

default

Tristan Paylor: 01:24:17

kind of gender. And we do at least have mercury.

Tristan Paylor: 01:24:21

Yeah, androgynous. Even even in traditional astrology, you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:24:26

and all of the planets are given very binary gender assignments

Tristan Paylor: 01:24:30

of masculine or feminine, but mercury can be either one, maybe

Tristan Paylor: 01:24:34

that's why you find it.

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:36

Maybe that's why I read something about because

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:39

there's a debate in the astrological community or some

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:42

segment of it about whether or not desta rules Burdo. I don't

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:48

know. But I can see where maybe, maybe some of that's coming from

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:53

mercury. It's like the androgynous planet. Vesta has

Kyle Pierce: 01:24:58

this association with Have you stressed the goddess its

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:01

association with androgyny to some degree, which is called the

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:07

my kind of 20th century, like psychoanalysts, the archetypal

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:12

the the phallic mother, kind of like a desexualized mother, I

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:17

suppose the series who obviously had a baby, she had to have sex

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:22

to have the baby. But the almost puts that's done this sort of

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:27

different role that we do have, you know, like Mother Teresa, we

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:31

have these figures in No, Mother Teresa's birth chart. In Roman

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:39

mythology, or Roman society, Vesta had this association with

Kyle Pierce: 01:25:43

liminality. Like, the the space between things,

Tristan Paylor: 01:25:47

and she's sort of like the, or Janice, I don't

Tristan Paylor: 01:25:52

know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, it was the doorway.

Tristan Paylor: 01:25:56

She was the, I guess, the vestibule or whatever you would

Tristan Paylor: 01:25:59

call it like another one of the sort of transitional spaces

Tristan Paylor: 01:26:02

between one place and another.

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:04

Yeah. It's like brides couldn't step on the

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:08

threshold and step over the threshold.

Tristan Paylor: 01:26:10

Right? You don't want to invent

Unknown: 01:26:12

investor. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor: 01:26:13

that's the sacred space. She's the

Tristan Paylor: 01:26:15

threshold.

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:15

I mean, and there's obvious, you know, tie in to

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:19

female sexuality. But you know, being between male and female

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:22

being between one place, and another, often we have rituals

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:26

around these kind of transitions, you know, like a

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:29

wedding as the obvious example, like a bar mitzvah, you know, or

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:35

about mitzvah, or a graduation ceremony, you know, it's all

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:38

about kind of stepping over that threshold from one stage to the

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:43

next. You just don't like maybe lives in that space. That's her

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:47

space, you know, that, that in between spaces. Me her sacred

Kyle Pierce: 01:26:53

space that.

Tristan Paylor: 01:26:54

Yeah, and there's something it you know,

Tristan Paylor: 01:26:57

you can see why people want to give Virgo to her, because there

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:00

is that mercurial quality as well, that liminal quality that

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:04

we know is a component of mercury. Yeah, there's that

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:08

obvious one, but I mean, I when I think Ceres and Vesta are to

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:15

where people kind of associate them with Virgo. They say they

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:18

have some affinity with Virgo series being about the harvest,

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:23

and best obviously, being the Virgin. But I guess until now, I

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:27

hadn't really recognized that quality of liminality as well,

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:33

and being a deity about transitions and how similar that

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:37

is to mercury as well.

Kyle Pierce: 01:27:38

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's easier for me to give

Kyle Pierce: 01:27:43

like the sign, I don't know, give particular sign affinities

Kyle Pierce: 01:27:46

to the other ones.

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:49

Yeah, I haven't really been thinking about them

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:52

in terms of sign affinities all that much. I know Dimitra. In

Tristan Paylor: 01:27:58

her book, has a few signs, two or three signs that she

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:04

considers to have some affinity for the asteroids, but I'm too

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:08

traditional. I cannot untie the signs from the traditional

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:11

planets.

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:12

Oh, yeah. I mean, affinity is different than

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:13

rulership, too. But there is, yeah, my brain does tend to go a

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:16

little bit there and like, oh, yeah, which one? Which syncs can

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:20

squeeze the most juice out of one of these apps? Yeah, no. But

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:26

that's the, you know, maybe just want to say Scorpio to some

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:30

degree, but not, I don't know.

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:32

That came into my mind too. And then I was like

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:35

that she doesn't have the aggressive connotations that

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:38

Scorpio does, is still more defensive and protective or

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:43

defensive.

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:44

Yeah, like you will not cross.

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:47

That's true. That is true as like a guardian

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:50

of the threshold. Scorpio is a good sign. Like I am securing

Tristan Paylor: 01:28:54

this boundary and you are not getting past it.

Kyle Pierce: 01:28:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I hear like the queries thrown

Kyle Pierce: 01:29:01

around for Palace a lot. I'm like, like that one.

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:04

That one's interesting. Yeah, Palace is the

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:07

one where I'm like, there really isn't a sign that particularly

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:10

stands out as having an affinity, maybe Scorpio, again,

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:14

for that reason that Athena is more of a defensive war goddess,

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:18

not an offensive one. And she's more she tends to be none of

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:23

this is necessarily a Scorpio thing, but at least in the sense

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:29

that, you know, Scorpio is the nocturnal side of Mars and a

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:34

little bit less direct in terms of how it or less a little more

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:38

subtle in terms of how it influences or responds to crisis

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:42

and conflict. Athena was more known for supporting heroes in

Tristan Paylor: 01:29:47

their conflicts than fighting herself. Yeah, I think

Kyle Pierce: 01:29:52

she also took like a strategic approach when she

Kyle Pierce: 01:29:54

did fight. She tended to do better she didn't actually fight

Kyle Pierce: 01:29:57

as much as like Mars did, but didn't have like before to win?

Kyle Pierce: 01:30:03

Yeah, yeah, he was gonna win. And she would do it because she

Kyle Pierce: 01:30:06

had a plan, you know?

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:09

Yeah, she just doesn't fit like neatly into any

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:11

one of the signs really. There are a couple of resources that I

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:18

want to share in terms of learning more about the

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:22

asteroids. And I'll include links to both of these resources

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:27

in the show notes. The first one is just like a General Resource

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:31

on learning more about asteroids is the website of Empress

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:35

Atlantis. She is in Australia, astrologer who works really

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:40

intensively with the asteroids. And her website is just an

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:43

incredible resource. And just like, it's a library of more

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:49

resources, and more astrologers who work with the asteroids

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:53

that's just like really well organized. So if you're

Tristan Paylor: 01:30:56

interested in them, definitely check out her website. And

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:01

there's also a project called asteroids of the gods, which,

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:07

unfortunately, seems to be inactive. I think it's been

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:12

inactive for maybe close to a year now. But this projects,

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:18

blog is still up on Tumblr. And so there's, there's still this

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:22

whole archive of resources and interesting discussions about

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:27

the intersection between astrology and polytheism. And as

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:32

a pagan and a polytheist. About this might be worth mentioning

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:37

it, it basically, the project has instructions on looking up

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:45

any of the asteroids that have been named after deities from

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:50

different traditions on astro.com, if you're casting a

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:53

chart, so if you are a polytheist, and say, You're a

Tristan Paylor: 01:31:57

devotee of Dionysus, or Diana, or Oh, then there are asteroids

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:04

named after those deities, and you can look up their numbers

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:08

and pop them into your birth chart on astro.com. So people

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:14

were using that, you know, as a tool to think about their

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:19

relationships with their gods, you know, depending on what

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:22

house and sign it was in, you know, if there was sort of a

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:24

message there about that particular relationship or what

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:29

that relationship is asking of them. So anyway, check that out.

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:33

And if you want to know where other gods are in your birth

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:38

chart, there are a lot of them.

Kyle Pierce: 01:32:41

I really like that you're being bested for that

Kyle Pierce: 01:32:44

that project. Like found this fire, you know, and it's like,

Kyle Pierce: 01:32:48

oh, it's kind of going out. I want to be the keeper of this

Kyle Pierce: 01:32:50

fire. So yeah, everyone, please check this project. The what's

Kyle Pierce: 01:32:55

it called

Tristan Paylor: 01:32:55

again? Asteroids of the gods.

Kyle Pierce: 01:32:58

Asteroids of the gods. Yeah. You showed it to me.

Kyle Pierce: 01:33:01

does look really cool. And yeah, help Tristan, keep that fire

Kyle Pierce: 01:33:07

alive.

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:08

Yes. Yeah, there's a whole archive of

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:13

experiences that people have shared with their deities, and

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:18

you know, any insights that they gleaned from finding the

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:20

position of their asteroids in their birth chart so that's,

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:23

that's pretty cool. I really I that's my favorite stuff. I love

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:27

the lore but people's personal experiences with their deities

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:30

is my absolute favorite stuff to read about no yeah. And if it

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:34

also has to do with astrology, then you've just hit all of the

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:37

all the sweet spots for me.

Kyle Pierce: 01:33:41

Well, does that end are what would be the word for

Kyle Pierce: 01:33:47

this audiobook on the asteroids?

Tristan Paylor: 01:33:52

are epic adventure into the asteroids?

Kyle Pierce: 01:33:58

This was a an episode of mythic proportions.

Kyle Pierce: 01:34:02

Oh, you Tristan, I know have quite a few things to plug right

Kyle Pierce: 01:34:08

now. Right.

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:10

I think I think just the usual I think just my

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:13

actually, you know, I guess I have one additional thing. So

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:19

you can find me on Instagram, at bad sign astrology. If Instagram

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:25

is your thing. And if you are interested in booking a

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:30

consultation with me, there is a booking link on my website at

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:36

bad sign astrology.ca And I'll have links to those in the show

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:40

notes. And I have also started up a blog. So you can find me as

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:48

bad sign astrology on Tumblr. Or you can just read my blog on my

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:54

website and I have been writing articles about all the planets

Tristan Paylor: 01:34:59

where I go through through a few source texts, starting from the

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:04

second century and moving all the way up to the 20th century,

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:07

and you know, do a brief sort of comparison and then talk a bit

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:11

about how I interpret those planets in my own practice. So,

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:16

yeah, if you want to read those articles on the planets Thank

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:23

you. I'm right, I'm supposed to say and you know, now I just sit

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:32

here staring blankly at you, waiting for you to assert

Tristan Paylor: 01:35:35

yourself ask me what I want. No. No, actually, it's all about me.

Kyle Pierce: 01:35:46

I get a I almost feel like I have one less thing

Kyle Pierce: 01:35:50

to blood. Not that killer cosmos is dead. I just don't want to

Kyle Pierce: 01:35:56

say that a new episode is coming out. Too busy with with this

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:03

really awesome podcast I've been working on called the astrology

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:06

hotline. You might want to check it out. But also, if you want to

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:12

book a consultation with me, you can go to my website, Powell

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:16

Pierce astrology.com. And, you know, I got some stuff written

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:22

on there. You know, you can read that stuff.

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:25

You got some some pretty cool articles about

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:28

the lunations.

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:31

I mean, I don't have like the extensive, you

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:34

know, historical references and like, I feel like you, you cited

Kyle Pierce: 01:36:39

like, all your your stuff. So it's pretty

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:42

mean it's oppressive. And still not

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:44

exactly. Yeah. Well, I don't know if I call it comprehensive.

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:48

I didn't do it with great scholarly rigor. I mean, I wrote

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:51

an article a day for three days is kind of a challenge to

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:53

myself. Yeah, they're a little details, I guess. Like, how

Tristan Paylor: 01:36:57

trustworthy are the translations? I'm using, you

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:00

know, some of the, I think some of the texts from the medieval

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:04

Arabic tradition. We don't have the original Arabic texts for

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:07

all of them, I believe. I think some of them were. Some of the

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:12

sources we have are already translated into European

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:15

languages. So you know, I haven't done a deep dive into

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:19

all of that. But I at least, have looked over what

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:23

translations I do have, and shared what I thought was

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:27

interesting.

Kyle Pierce: 01:37:28

No, as a student of history, I liked the citations

Kyle Pierce: 01:37:32

and the historical, their citation. And I liked the

Kyle Pierce: 01:37:35

historical context for everything. Yeah,

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:38

I love that stuff. I'd like to thank Porter,

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:43

our listener this week, who sent in this fantastic question, and

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:47

sent us down this whole path this like rabbit hole of they

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:52

might have gotten more than they were expecting. And I got more

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:55

than I was expecting. And I think this is just the beginning

Tristan Paylor: 01:37:59

of a lengthy relationship with the asteroids for me.

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:04

Yeah, yeah, thank you, Porter, because I would

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:09

have probably gone on ignoring the asteroids for for a long

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:13

time, but I feel like I've been converted. I think I'm still

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:19

figuring it out. And still, I don't know if if they're going

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:22

to be showing up in consultations quite yet. But

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:26

they are definitely on my radar. For keep C's

Tristan Paylor: 01:38:30

Yep. For further research.

Unknown: 01:38:34

Well, we will sign off for to seeing you all next time.

Unknown: 01:38:39

Thanks for tuning in.

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:41

And actually see you. You have a question you

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:48

would like to hear answered on astrology hotline. Go ahead and

Kyle Pierce: 01:38:51

send us an email at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com